Tulpa.info - tulpa-discussion

it sounds cool, but is a challenge to prove and has very little consequence whether it is true or not besides 'ooh' and experts in the field

i'm starting to lose motivation in talking with you if you can't fathom to assume your viewpoint is the only one that's rational

it has a wikipedia page based on basically one guy who created and supported it

"oh it's just useless babble, who cares?" c'mon babe

3:53 AM

you can do better than that

well, i'd love to prove or disprove it, but we're talking 3000 years ago here... once we've discussed what it means, and what it would mean for us, what else is there to talk about? i mean, that's pretty much it until we get further information... it's just a thought experiment until then... and i have plenty of thought experiments...

religion may have existed before the periods this theory details, but things like divination and oracles have no founding before then

3:57 AM

i don't think it's a useless endeavor to understand where humans and modern society evolved from, especially if we can rationalize and argue against the atrocious behaviors some people use in the name of religion

kaybee

even joyce had to deal with people mistaking his point so hard

his critics seem to not get the plausibility of his idea

3:59 AM

they're both plausible

4:00 AM

the mainstream will always reject tributaries

it's hard to read your words and assume you aren't doing the same, for whatever reason you hold

i mean, he'll be up against people who have spent their whole lives in academia reading things that assume people were conscious 3000+ years ago, so they'll reject it by the gut, that's the one thing i can sympathise with

kaybee

Click to see attachment 🖼️

yeah, this paragraph is about how thinking isn't consciousness, which i got already... as expected, people are so dug into their trenches that they don't even know what a flower is

4:05 AM

usually when you see someone come out with a radical idea that's actually true, it first gets ignored, then it gets ridiculed, then there's a pause, then you can't find anyone who disagrees with you

then it's a case of miscommunication

to me, i think if you have language in a population, about 90% will have an internal dialogue

read the book and clarify where your discrepancies lie with his theory, if you'd like

kaybee

Click to see attachment 🖼️

yeah i understood this since early on in the conversation

Im mot understanding the convo

me either tbh

Whetsit about

lolcery, you might have to read to find out

I tried

god, so rude to assume they didn't

Unfortunately i cant keep my eyes open

yeah i don't think you're arguing in good faith anymore

Whats the like, theory we are discussing

4:11 AM

Yall*

4:11 AM

Im not discussing. Im going to bed after i get my answer

4:12 AM

And whats a like, 1-2 sentence summarization of the tHingy

4:12 AM

Theory

kaybee

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicameral_mentality

@berockly (TTG)

️

Ah

the pages you sent are all more or less 'actually, if you read what jaynes said, he isn't calling them zombies, he's just saying people in the past didn't have self reflection like we do'

Well

4:14 AM

Animals are conscious for example

4:15 AM

Sor mayne im usimg the wo ds wrong

4:15 AM

Yep going to bed

4:15 AM

My viosn is so blury

if that's all true, then pretty much everything i've said in this conversation i stand by... it's an interesting idea it doesn't matter much (philosophy in general) (don't feel invalidated by this, i said this about life outside of earth too) and it's hard to prove or disprove and his critics are all people who simply do not understand at all what he is actually saying ...i picked it up in a few minutes by reading the wiki page, but then again i used to think about the mind alot

4:18 AM

in that sense, i pity him, because all the people criticising him have no idea what he's actually saying, so he must feel frustrated

4:18 AM

that's academia

4:19 AM

but i'm sure there are people who do understand it who are also critics, those are usually the quiet ones you don't notice though

sh

i don't think it's plausible tbh

so what was this about then

kaybee

god, so rude to assume they didn't

well, they just joined so unless they started reading when i did they probably missed a few things and i think based on the chillaxed atmosphere on .info it's fair to say they just rolled in guns flinging because they saw activity and wanted to join in... something i empathise with so it's not rood to assume they haven't read it... i don't think i would've... lolcery is a more relaxed type of person anyway, for the years they've been here

kaybee

so what was this about then

ah i contradicted myself lol i said it's not plausible then later said they're both plausible ok perhaps i should explain my feelings ('tulpish') then so we can drop the mistranslation error they're both plausible, it could be that people from the past really didn't self reflect like we do nowadays, or it could just be they were the same so, both are entirely possible (plausible) but it seems to me, based on how i feel and my understanding of evolution, and my experience with my own brain, that it's more likely that it's simply always been this way so, only 'always been this way' is plausible (as in, probably true, disclaimer, in my opinion)

'what are some of those experiences' well, assuming you've got the same brain as me, if you've ever tried to think without using words it's entirely possible have you ever heard of 'tulpish'? i can explain this faster if you have when people are developing their tulpas they say they get responses... but not in english! it's described as 'pure thought', it's not in english, it's just thinking in pure concepts with no words and some prefer to communicate with their headmates this way, while others prefer to use words. it doesn't matter, it's a personal preference... i also think tulpish is just a tulpamancy community term to describe 'pure thought' which everyone else (singlets) are capable of too (some report they only think this way) (this is what i meant by 90% earlier - this is the 10%) is the question 'tulpish or english' the same as 'pure thought or english'

4:36 AM

when i do, it feels like i could easily formulate words for what i'm thinking about - the language part of my brain is fully connected with a 6 lane motorway to my thought process - i'm just simply choosing not to

4:38 AM

like a pipeline, even while writing this out, i kinda get an idea in my head of what i want to write, often half a sentence ahead of what the language part of my brain is actually transcribing into words, and even that is before i type fast enough to even get to that word...

4:42 AM

and sometimes i notice i pause- my thoughts have ran out... i think that's like the 'pipeline' being 'starved of resources', and it usually happens because, either: 1) i've focused on something else (if i start thinking about something else i can still type for a while mindlessly which occasionally results in amusing/nonsensical sleep-written sentences) or, 2) i just needed a few more seconds to think, to realise what i actually think/feel

4:43 AM

20 minutes is enough, you get the idea, my experiences just don't seem to match what jaynes is assuming about the mind

A rare Shield book

i had to explain myself

6:18 AM

i can't help it

@kaybee @sh I It seems to me like the issue with people misunderstanding what Jaynes is saying is that he took one word that already has a definition and use it to describe another word that has already it’s own definition. He calls self-awareness “consciousness” and I’m not surprised people resist what he’s saying so much. I’m not familiar with his work outside of what you talked about here and wikipedia so I base it solely on this, but his framework seems to be based on how people related to parts of their mind in the past in poetry and other works of literature. So first, we don’t know if they actually meant that or it was symbolism or figure of speech. Second, even if they meant that the thoughts and emotions come from gods, it’s still form of self-awareness. They know they are there, they just give it a different meaning. Third, even if that’s what they believed is going on in their minds, we don’t know if them giving a different meaning is descriptive or prescriptive. Nowadays we know that one of the functions of pre-frontal cortex is modelling the rest of the brain in order to regulate it. With or without words. There is a trend in the west to romanticise of intellect, logic and rationalism. And it plays a big role in all of our lives. But that puts us in a place of bias. It makes us like playing with words. We use those words to write a map of a mindscape, we fill it with details and we don’t notice the moment when filling the details becomes an act of making things up. And we don’t notice when we start living in the map of a mindscape rather than the actual mindscape. That is one the trap of relying on language and labels too much in exploration of the mind. By the way, tulpamancy is a practice of drawing a map of your mind and choosing to live in it.

8:45 AM

It’s hard to not see the tendency of the West to focus on intellect to be one of the ways for westerners to consider themselves “better” than the ones who don’t. So what are other options to look at this problem? If you looked at eastern cultures whose philosophy style is very different than the one of the West, you would notice that Jayne’s model is nothing special, and even quire simplistic. I think simplicity is very useful (big fan) but it can take you far into the bushes of wrong conclusions and it makes it hard for you to get back on track. In Hindu culture there many words to describe different parts, mechanisms and functions of the mind that we simply don’t have words for. It gives them a framework to “think about thinking”, it gives them more tools for self-awareness. Are they more “conscious” in Jayne’s sense, if they have more words to describe and map their mind? Are we the westerners actually “zombies” compared to them, being stuck in words, labels, intellect, rationalisation, rather than living in the real world and seeing our thoughts for what they are rather than writing a fanfic about them, and being so proud of it? My arguments would be similar though - we don’t know how much of that map is prescriptive or descriptive, how much of it is filling up details and writing a fanfic of itself, but millions if not billions people found it useful in building up self-awareness and tools for managing their own mind, emotions and thoughts, while all that Jayne’s concludes is imperialistic “we are better than them”.

so if anyone is interested the experience of coming out of the map that tictac described and seeing it for what it is has different names in different spiritual practice and schools of psychology it can be called enlightenment, spiritual awakening, the self, pure awareness, higher consciousness, connecting with dao and others the trick with it is that some people might think they experienced coming out of the map but what they actually experience is just ending up on another map and it can happen multiple times it is not something achieved intellectually because once you intellectualise it you end up writing a new map it takes time and practice to build new neural connections for self referencing and self awareness, it can’t happen through just being told of something, being introduced to the concept or thinking logically, it is purely experiential and all someone can do to help you achieve it is subtle guidance, but all of the hard work is done by you

1

I'll keep using Jaynes' definition of consciousness (which more commonly falls under the definition 'self-awareness') in this post. I find myself unconvinced by Jaynes' hypothesis because it's hard (or perhaps impossible) to prove, and without more information about the past it doesn't stand out amongst competing ideas. I basically have the same position on this as Shield does, i.e. it's plausible. The main thing that's stopping me being convinced by the idea is that large parts of the argument that consciousness was lacking at certain points in the past is based on noticing the lack of evidence of consciousness. However, lack of evidence does not imply evidence of lack. At most, these observations are consistent with Jaynes' hypothesis. Aside from the possibility of us simply not having access to a fair sample of cultural artifacts from past humans, it's possible that cultural differences in past societies compared to the modern day caused the experience of consciousness to be described in different ways in these past societies. I can't improve on TiCtAc's take on this in her second paragraph and beyond! I have my own theory about why consciousness seems to appear more often later in history (and I think it could be just one contributing factor among many). I noticed that the characteristics of someone lacking Jaynes-style consciousness are strikingly similar to the characteristics of someone lacking emotional maturity due to a non-ideal childhood, even down to details such as a lack of ability to think about time in a linear fashion. It seems plausible to me that, with greater access to information and fewer immediate threats to life, later historical periods provide more opportunities for someone to experience a childhood that results in them expressing the innate human capacity for Jaynes-style consciousness.

It seems to me like the issue with people misunderstanding what Jaynes is saying is that he took one word that already has a definition and use it to describe another word that has already it’s own definition. He calls self-awareness “consciousness” and I’m not surprised people resist what he’s saying so much.

^^^ this! a lot of people are sensitive to word choice

✘ 𝔹𝕃𝕆𝕆𝔻𝕀𝕍𝕆ℝ𝔼 ✘

I'mma leave the server btw so if you're interested, just shoot me a DM

And suddenly, I have returned. Over a year later. Struggling to reconnect with the tulpas I once was close with :/

Hmm, have you tried reaching out to them?

Iota ˗ˏˋM&M´ˎ˗

Hmm, have you tried reaching out to them?

Yep

12:07 AM

I'm hoping maybe being around the community again will help. I miss em.

Sometimes it's just a matter of sticking with it consistently until you get results.

12:08 AM

Maybe thinking about things that your tulpas would like or be interested in, or prompting them to engage in activities with you.

We're about 7 months in, give or take, of near-daily attempts. Which is what's worrying.

And no contact whatsoever?

Absolutely nothing

Hmm, how developed were they before now?

12:14 AM

Back when you could still get to them

Quite developed. I'd had em for about a year, and I'd consider them to all have been almost fully if not fully developed. Full conversations, independent thinking, split attention...unfortunately, we never could manage to have a Tulpa take over the body, but that's about it.

Hm, now, when you try and reach out to them, are you doubting that they'll respond?

I don't think I am. I wasn't at first, at least. Now that it's been a good few months, I'm beginning to have doubts.

Hmm, yeah, doubts can definitely get in the way

✘ 𝔹𝕃𝕆𝕆𝔻𝕀𝕍𝕆ℝ𝔼 ✘

We're about 7 months in, give or take, of near-daily attempts. Which is what's worrying.

If doubts lead to the conclusion, "they can't be different from me", then your brain will enforce that and your headmates will just seem like you. It's okay to be skeptical of the phenomenon, and you don't even need to believe they're 100% separate for this to work. You do have to have the mindset they are not you though, since that's the key ingredient- convincing yourself there are other people in your head. Plus, if you influence your headmates a little or even a lot, they can still qualify as "not you", nor will this hurt their development. If they feel too connected to you at any point, they will call you out for it and try to create distance. Like, they may say, "That wasn't me!"

Random, but it's kind of stressful when singlets just assume you have DID but you don't want to explain yourself because it's too much effort, but you also don't want them to think you have a serious medical condition when you don't.

8:30 PM

8:30 PM

I'm lucky enough to "pass" as a traumagenic system, because I'm not lying about it, at least.

8:32 PM

Oh god there's an actual whole ass system here LMAO

8:32 PM

I'm Not Alone

they only know how much you tell them and you only tell them how much you want

8:48 PM

it's as personal as you make it

8:48 PM

you don't need to explain anything about yourself

refuse to answer questions.

We had an actually productive conversation actually.

9:31 PM

I'm surprised to see open-minded systems in places not meant for them.

I say system and let them assume

9:49 PM

But I never say did myself

They were shockingly tolerant of endos (they brought it up, asked my opinion, and genuinely wanted to listen to me talk about it)

9:50 PM

Wanted to friend me, but I said no.

Rusty

I say system and let them assume

I think a lot of people don't know non-DID/osdd systems exist

1

I’m fine with keeping it that way

Alexandria, it appears, has no desire to return. But Axar has somewhat made his presence (and form) known, a fact which delights me greatly.

That's great..! Did Alexandria tell you they didn't want to return..? I'm curious how you know.

She just...hasn't. 7 months of trying, no response. I don't know if she somehow fused with Axar, is just...incapable of making her presence known, or doesn't want to. Unfortunately, Axar presently struggles to place words together well enough to help me figure things out.

If you've managed to contact Axar, work with him first. You can get back to Alexandria once he's in a more stable position.

2:33 AM

Also, don't take it as her not wishing to return, that can only cut off your communications further. If she has not explicitly stated this to you, it may as well not be true in the slightest.

That's what I was thinking.

Hi so, recently I've found myself in spaces meant for dissociative disorders, but I've had a really difficult time feeling comfortable because of my experience in tulpa communities. There's an overwhelming view that whatever you find inside your brain is indicative of some type of hidden truth, and the whole discovery process honestly seems like applying tulpamancy techniques to already dissociated parts and making them way more distinct, rather than the reverse 'people with tulpas have DID and don't know it'. I am curious if anyone else who's suspected/has a DD and has also been in tulpa communities feels the same.